Modern Product Management with Pawel Huryn
Join Murray Robinson and Shane Gibson as they chat with Pawel Huryn about product management, its nuances, and its importance in driving product success. Learn about the differences between product management (focusing on discovery) and project management (focusing on delivery), and how to achieve both simultaneously in a single empowered product team.
Key topics covered include:
🔸 What product management is and isn’t
🔸 Motivating teams and driving product success
🔸 Becoming a product manager
🔸 The best product management tools to use
Tune in to gain valuable insights on product management and discover the critical role it plays in creating successful products and managing effective teams.
Read along you will
Murray: In this episode, we talked to Pavel Huryn about product management. What it is, and isn’t? How to motivate teams and what makes a product succeed. We discuss the difference between product management, which focuses on discovery and project management, which focuses on delivery. And how to do both at the same time in one empowered product team. We talk about how you can become a product manager and the best product management tools to use. Join us as we uncover valuable insights to help you succeed in this critical role.
Shane: Welcome to the New Nonsense Agile podcast. I’m Shane Gibson.
Murray: and I’m Murray Robinson.
Pawel: And I’m Pawel Huryn.
Murray: Hi Pavel. Thanks for coming on and talking to us today.
Pawel: Thanks for having me.
Murray: We want to talk about product management with you, what it is and is not. But first we would like to get you to introduce yourself. Where did you start your career and how did you get into product management? And what are you doing now?
Pawel: Yeah, sure. So I started as a software developer, and then I became a team leader and then I transitioned to the project manager, which was anything but agile. After a few years, I decided to run my own company. when I was creating a tech startup in Poland. And , after five years, I decided to focus on product management. And here I am.
Murray: So tell about this startup. What were you doing there?
Pawel: It was a B2B startup. We focused on document workflows and intranets. And from the start it was designed to be a product that we will sell and deploy many times for different customers. And we’ve been quite successful. We had the biggest customers from Poland, like Polish Airlines some financial institutions, payment infrastructure also companies from other countries like Gkn Driveline, which is a FUTSI 100 company.
Murray: So what was your role? How many people was it?
Pawel: It was like 15 people. Not a large team. I was responsible for everything related to product, also for marketing, for sales, for managing key accounts. So it, it was more than a typical product manager.
Murray: So did you take investment or was all, your own money?
Pawel: It was all my own money. So we started with a very small amount, but then , we multiplied a few times.
Murray: What happened then at the end? Did you sell it or what?
Pawel: I sold myself to my partner. And then I decided that I would like to focus 100% on managing products.
Murray: So what did you learn from that experience?
Pawel: It was a rollercoaster for me. So the number of things you need to do in parallel, like customers calling hiring new people writing commercial offers, verifying agreements and negotiating contracts. So amount of things and the amount of hats that you need to wear every day is tremendous. And also there is a high pressure to learn fast because you you either have money for the people to pay them next month or you don’t. We have no investor, so I was really pushed to learn and find ways to market, sell our products, to create the most value for our customers.
Murray: Shane is in the same situation at the moment, aren’t you? Shane’s.
Shane: I have so many hats on, mate. It’s not funny. So yeah. I hear you bootstrapping. Every day, every hour, it’s a different thing that needs to be done. And you gotta keep all the balls in the air. Do you reckon that’s what makes a good product manager? Is somebody who has that breadth of skills?
Pawel: I think it is beneficial because as a product manager, you need to make sure that what you are creating works not only for the customers through collaboration with developers you ensure that it’s feasible, but also it works for different parts of the business. And understanding what sales does, what marketing does, what is the financial perspective that business needs this really helps.
Shane: I’m doing a Reforge program at the moment on product marketing and it’s obviously been designed by people that work in large organizations because, the content’s, how to do a product marketing brief to go to your creative team to create the, creative content that’s going out on social media and the website.
And I’m like holy shit, I just asked myself. So I think, that size of organization often determines, the breadth of that product manager’s role.
Murray: I see you are a product manager at Regiondo in Germany. Now, what is Regiondo
Pawel: it’s an activity booking solution. So this is a B2B two C platform for activity providers from Europe. So what they can do in our platform is to manage their products, manage availability, manage resources. Also they can have a point of sales solutions, which are, physical devices or mobile devices to scan tickets. Our customers are Waterparks, some parachute jumping companies. We have the biggest Zoos from Europe. Walking tours scuba diving almost everything you can think of.
Murray: So what’s the biggest problem that you are trying to solve?
Pawel: Many of our customers do bookings manually They just have a, piece of paper and customer is calling and then they just note the dates and the number of places that are available. 80% of operators are still not digitized and operate in a traditional way. So what we are trying to do is making business easier so they can focus on spending time with the customers, focusing on activities and not on managing, booking, printing tickets sending invoices some notifications.
Murray: Okay, so what is product management in your opinion?
Pawel: So there are two perspectives. What product management common commonly is on the market and what good product management is. And in many organizations, product management is just a name for project management. So even though companies use agile methodologies like Scrum they still have this mindset of analyzing everything upfront, then estimating the project and delivering it in iterations. Commonly, scrum is used to deliver piece by piece the scope that is more or less defined.
For me, good product management is primarily about discovery. So first there is the initial discovery when we need to create our value proposition; find the market that we want to address; think about strategy, about the business model, and test our idea with the help of MVP prototypes. And after the product is launched, we can start using product analytics. We can start interviewing customers on a weekly basis, for example, like the recommends.
And the second is continuous delivery which is commonly referred to as dual track or dual track development. And product manager should focus primarily not on the development track, but on discovering what’s to build.
So there are two areas discovering the problems that are worth solving that will drive our expected outcomes, and then discovering solutions to those problems, identifying assumptions and testing those assumptions. A product manager doesn’t do it alone. They need to collaborate with designer and at least one engineer. So they interview customers together. They map opportunities, which are problems and identify assumptions for the solutions they they ideated. And then we test those assumptions to make sure that the risks are addressed before selecting anything for the implementation. And I’m lucky enough that in my current company it’s looks pretty like it is described in the continuous discovery habits by Teresa Torres. But I know it is not the case in many others companies.
Murray: Yeah. So is product manager responsible for pricing?
Pawel: This should be done in collaboration with product marketer. And of course some product marketers are doing only Adwords or creating some brochures. but If you have an experienced product , marketer they are responsible not only for communicating the value to the customers and, but also for the marketing strategy and pricing strategy for me. So I, I would do it together with product marketer.
Murray: When I studied product management, there was the four Ps of product management, product price, place promotion. So product itself is the product features, its benefits, and Price, we know what price is place was distribution. Where are you selling it? What are your distribution channels and promotion was all about, marketing.
When I hear people in the agile technology space talk about product, it seems to be a very narrow definition of product from my point of view, cuz it’s only about the product features. So that’s why I’m asking you about some of these other parts like marketing.
Pawel: In my opinion, it’s helpful to understand this, but in larger organizations, product, manager will not typically do it alone. So it needs to be consulted with product marketed, for sure this promotion, but I think also distribution channels might be part of this marketing strategy. I don’t really like setting a clear boundaries. They should do it together.
Understanding pricing strategies is extremely helpful for product manager and they should understand it for sure. But in the larger organization, the reality is that the product manager has some superior CPO that will also have to say when it comes to pricing. In a small organization, you may have one person that is responsible for everything, marketing, pricing value what we work for the business. But, the larger organization, the most split at this responsibility becomes.
Murray: Yeah, you might have a marketing manager who does marketing for several products, and you do a campaign together. I see that. I think though that there’s a more fundamental issue here, and that is what is your definition of a product?
Pawel: So when we take the Scrum definition, it’s extremely broad. So basically everything is a product, even delivering dedicated software requested by the customer. When we get all the requirements, from the customer it’s a product according to Scrum. But this is not my definition. When I’m thinking about the product. It’s not dedicated, it’s addressed to the larger group of customers and there is no single customer that decides what needs to be built. And rather it’s we are trying to create value to solve some problem that is repeatable for a specific group of people. And we are trying to do it better than others.
Murray: A product is a repeatable solution to a problem.
Pawel: Yes. Some companies have a product, but they take some core solution and they customize it for every customer. This might be a valid business model, but this is not product management. I’m thinking about. So the product needs to be repeatable needs to address some problems that are not unique to a single company or a single user.
Murray: So if I’m building and managing a CRM for my bank, am I a product manager? All the users are internal, but it’s repeatable. like I’m putting in a platform and then I’m managing it for my users, my sales team.
Pawel: There are internal products, but the dynamic is totally different. There are no competitors. It’s hard to say about marketing when you are creating something for your organization and users don’t not really have a choice. They need to use your solution. You can use a lot of product management techniques.
Murray: Scrum would say if you are managing a CRM for your users, you are a product owner, and a product owner is a product manager, according to Scrum. So I guess you’re saying a product manager isn’t the same as a Scrum product owner.
Pawel: Yeah. it’s not.
Murray: Okay. What’s the difference between a product manager and a product owner then?
Pawel: So product owner should have a end to end responsibility for the product, but in reality, product owner often becames the backlog administrator. They just received some requests from the stakeholders. Writing a lot of user stories and prioritizing them and then making sure they are delivered. But this is not product management.
Murray: What’s the difference between a really good product manager and an average product manager.
Pawel: I think that most of the good product managers I met were curious. They are really passionate about helping others and solving problems and are extremely customer focused. So I think that it’s extremely important for product manager to understand the business value that we create is the result of creating value for the customers. And not every product manager has this empathy.
Also, good product manager do not try to control their teams. instead, they learn to trust because they know that they’re working with experts.
Murray: How does a good product manager motivate and lead the team? What do they do?
Pawel: For me, it’s extremely important to focus on communicating the strategic context. So like it is described in no rules rules that people should understand why they are doing what they’re doing, why this is important, how will it’ll create value for the customers and for the business. And they should have a clear understanding of the goals that they are trying to achieve. And then with this context and with the goals, they can make better decision themselves. I have repeatedly found that just understanding why the work we are doing is valuable and being trusted and being empowered, it causes interesting motivation. Also it’s important to celebrate small wins, just to let others know that they are progressing.
Murray: So when we look at product research they typically say that something like 80% of products they don’t achieve their goals. So why do some products succeed and others fail? Is it the product manager or is it just that they’re lucky?
Pawel: Yeah, I think that it’s not fair to say that the product fail or succeeds only because of the product manager, because there is also sales, there is marketing team. But if we put this aside, if we have an idea and we do everything to validate this idea, we run experiments, test of idea with prototypes, and it turns out that this idea doesn’t work or we do not have a chance to achieve the product market fit, I wouldn’t call it a failure.
Murray: Yeah, I, think it’s okay for you to conduct an experiment and then fail. That makes a lot of sense. Actually. You should do that early and often, but what I’m thinking of, is where you invest a lot of time and money into a product and then it doesn’t work, and then, you’ve run out of resources, but on the other hand, you see these products that, that just take off and, they’re growing at a hundred percent every month.
Shane: Yeah, but those overnight successes always take seven years. So I think there’s a lot of theater and some products and most of technology products where, the successes are lauded far more than the failures.
Murray: But products that just explode though. Look at Hotmail. What about chat G p T, that’s like the fastest growing product of all time.
Pawel: As far as I know they didn’t plan it and they were also surprised but when we are talking about product exploding it almost always has to do with virality. So this is a product led growth and it, one of the things that it requires, it’s that customers immediately see the value that the product provides. So the onboarding is smooth.
G PT may be a good example. So you’ll just open the page, you log in with your Gmail account and you can directly start using it.
There is no long registration, there are no configuration steps required. You don’t have to train the model. You can just use it and immediately see the value. And they are also using the freemium pricing strategy so we don’t have to pay to experience the value they provide.
And the virality I’m not sure this is something that you can plan with 100% certainty. But for sure the product provides insane amount of value. Customers want to share it with others and tell friends about the value that they receive.
Shane: Clubhouse is an interesting example of viral growth, but failure. That execution model they did with Clubhouse about making scarcity and invite only and big brand names and yeah, they went absolutely viral and I even looked lately, but they’re pretty much dead. There’s gotta be more to it than just being in the right place at the right time to to be able to have a successful product.
Pawel: It’s easier to say what you need to avoid doing. Like assuming ideas will work, creating detailed plans that span many months ahead. Trying to control what people are doing. And this has a lot to do with those detailed plans.
Murray: What’s wrong with doing detailed plans? Pavel. If, my Gantt chart doesn’t have a thousand items in it, how can I really prove that I’m in control of my product development project?
Pawel: Yeah. But the problem is that this is an abstraction and I have never seen a plan that longer than two, three months. That’s, stood the test of time. We waste time creating those detailed plans instead of focusing on how to deliver more value for the business and for the customers.
Murray: Why don’t those detailed plans work?
Pawel: There are many reasons. So we often assume that what we create will be valuable for the customers and that we will do it right for the first time.
And most of our ideas do not work. People either don’t desire what we created or they don’t know how to use it. Also what we are trying to do might not be possible to do from the technical point of view. Also, some ideas don’t work for the business. So even though we can create value for the customers, our marketing cannot market it or we don’t have a sales channels for this product. So there are many reasons. There is also some risk related to the people, how well they will work together.
And estimations are extremely difficult in complex environments because we don’t know what we need in the first place. And even if we know estimating it it’s extremely difficult and in most cases it doesn’t work.
Murray: So how do we reduce the risk of building the wrong thing?
Pawel: There are several ways. One of them is getting customer feedback, as soon as possible. Also experimenting before selecting ideas for for the implementation. So let’s say we discovered the problem and we have some idea of how to solve this problem.
We can identify assumptions, some risk related to value usability, feasibility, and what will work for the business and test those assumptions with the help of prototypes. Even then, ideas tend not to work at the first time. They often require several iterations because before they deliver the expected business value.
So that’s why it’s extremely important, not only to create a working increment and present it to stakeholders . For me, it’s extremely important to release it often in small increments and learn from customers using it for real. Because feedback that we receive during reviews, internal presentations, internal workshops, it’s not the same feedback as we get when customers start using the product for real.
Murray: It’s really expensive to build features do you think building them is the best way to get feedback?
Pawel: No, it’s the most expensive way. So building production ready increments just to get the feedback. It’s not the best solution. That’s why I mentioned running experiments and testing ideas with prototypes. But after we validate our ideas sooner or later, we need to release them. And what I’m saying is that, even though we tested ideas with prototypes, it doesn’t guarantee that the idea will work after we launch it. So that’s why it’s important to release it, as fast as possible.
Murray: If you are wanting to focus on the continuous discovery side of things, what are the best tools for a product manager to use?
Pawel: The most important tool for continuous product discovery is opportunity solution tree described by Teresa Torres. With the business outcome that you want to achieve from the top, and then different opportunities, which are problems, need, desires, and ideas that might solve those problems. And assumptions related to those ideas. You can do it in Miro. I personally use the Notion template.
What’s important is because Teresa Torres mentions prioritizing opportunities, but I think she doesn’t say how exactly it can be done. And for this, I’m using opportunity score by Dan Olson, which is the multiplication of the importance of the idea multiplied by one, minus satisfaction. So the less satisfied customers are with their ability to achieve some outcome the more valuable this opportunities and the more important opportunity is for the customers, the better.
And, when it comes to running experiments, it’s a good idea to combine opportunity solution tree with strategizer testing and learning cards. So the nice thing about those cards is that for every assumptions you may define test require, time required to make an experiment, and also evidence strength. And after conducting experiments, you can document your learnings. And once you prioritize opportunities, and define which experiments you should run, and which are not that important because, the risk is low, or the cost of experiment or time of the experiment is too long. I try to automate my tests. You can have a interview with the customer, present the prototype, ask questions, and it’s quite good.
But I prefer tools like Mace.
Murray: How do you spell that?
Pawel: M a Z e. it’s a platform for usability testing for idea validation, in which you can import your prototypes, like Figma designs or some wireframes and recruit participants automatically.
You can, present the prototype so it is displayed for five seconds, and then ask user questions about what they can remember about this prototype, or what was the goal? What was the main action that they were required to do.
Or you can upload a clickable prototype and then give user a series of steps to perform and record every click and see if they know how to use this interface without some introduction or clicking in random places. But of course you also need traditional interviews and just to talk to the people. It cannot be fully automized.
Murray: How do you know you are successful? What are some good North star metrics for products?
Pawel: It depends on the type of the product. For b2c, I really like metrics that are related to the value that is created for customers. It might be the number of hours that customer spends in the system and hours that customers doesn’t regret. So when you spend four hours on YouTube you probably don’t feel good about it. And I would rather choose a metric that is related to value created for the customers. So if someone spends four hours in my product, I would like that they learn something, that they feel that it helped them.
Murray: How would you measure that value though? What do you think are good ways of measuring the values that the customer’s getting?
Pawel: It depends on the product. So engagement is a good indicator of the value customer is getting.
Murray: Like how often they come back, how long they spend.
Pawel: And also you can divide the number of daily active users by the number of monthly active users. And if this ratio is high, it may mean that customer return often. So rather than tracking the number of daily active users, I would track this ratio so that it means that people use our product repeatedly.
But then I would really like to add some surveys or talk to the people to understand if they really value this time.
Shane: Do you think that product management is a core set of skills, that it doesn’t matter whether you’re doing B2B or b2c, you can apply those product management skills. Or is jumping from a B2C product to a B2B product’s gonna be hard.
Pawel: So some companies feel that the product manager needs to be a B2B or B2C product manager. But for me it’s not that important because the core skills are similar. Like being a good communicator, empathizing with customers working with the team influencing others. Those general skills are the same. They just need enough skills to run product discovery and they can learn the rest. If anything, knowing the particular market would be more important for me than knowing B2B or b2c.
You will use different metrics in b2b. You’ll not track engagement so often. The sales process may be longer. The time to value will be bigger. But the process is the same. So we need to acquire customers, you need to activation, you work on retention. There are referrers revenue. In B2B buyer and user might be a different people at the end of the day they are people. They are not robots. So still you can interview both users and buyers.
Shane: So next question then, if we look at product lead growth versus sales lead growth do product managers tend to have a flavor? Are product led growth and sales net growth, natural stances that you pick one or the other by default?
Pawel: I’m not sure that you can have a fully sales led growth and ignore the onboarding. So it’s a mix for me. In sales select growth you have users who need to start using the product for the first time, and they will complain or they will discover the value immediately.
They will commonly do it after you sign an agreement, but still you need to keep them happy. Maybe in b2b you won’t have so many referrals. But still understanding the principles and making the product self-explanatory. Using in product marketing or in product customer support you can apply those principles in sales led organization as well.
Shane: Yeah, there’s a whole ton of skills that you have to have as a product manager. In the product world. I see lots of books and theories and lots of templates and patterns you can pick up, but no trodden path, no education mechanism that most people go through. Am I just missing it or is that actually what the market’s like?
Pawel: There is no clear path for product managers. It is a problem. And MBA schools don’t really teach product management. It’s more about how to control things, how to manage risks, but not how to identify assumptions in your thinking and how to validate them.
Murray: Well let’s say you are a product owner and you want to become a product manager. What’s the best place to go and learn? Is it something like Reforge?
Pawel: Yeah, I had this conversation many times and it’s quite easy to get at the theoretical knowledge. You can read books and watch YouTube videos, but then you apply to the company and they require some product experience. A better idea might be for a product owner to try to transition internally, like shadowing product manager in your organization. It might be much easier than just gaining knowledge and getting a new job in another company as a product manager. Another approach might be joining a startup because in startups those job titles are tend to be extremely mixed. And one day you might be a product owner, another day you might be a product manager. And, the next week you can be a sales representative. So in a startup, it’s much easier to transition and change the scope of responsibilities.
Murray: Yeah. All right. Maybe we should wrap it up. Shane, what do you think?
Shane: Yep. Sounds good. I’m just say that actually Reforge isn’t that expensive and it’s probably the best value for money I’ve got in the product space for a long time.
Murray: How much is it?
Shane: They just changed their pricing, so I think it’s two grand and in person a year if you want to go on the cohorts, which are good. And I think they’ve dropped the price to a grand if you just want the content now. I can’t remember what I paid last year. I think it was three or four grand. That’s probably New Zealand pesos, not US dollars.
Okay. So I love the way that you started off by talking about startups wear many hats. You’re small, there’s 101 jobs to be done. And you end up doing a lot of them and. I think for me, good product managers, even if they’re in a big organization, have the ability to wear many hats if they need to. When there’s a gap and they need to step in they pick up that hat to get the job done because they’re there to deliver a product that works and is successful. And also by having worn the hats, they have a way of understanding the language, and understanding the work that needs to be done. And so they can talk to the other people that are hyper-specialized and understand, how they have a conversation about the creative brief and the one key message and, all that kind of stuff that’s really important.
You talked about understanding the different parts of the business. If you don’t understand how the organization is gonna monetize the product, how it’s gonna make money how the cash flows, who their target audiences, how they buy. Without all that knowledge, you’re really gonna build a product that has less chance of being successful.
An anti-pattern is where the product manager is just a name for a project manager. We see that in Agile and we see that in product a lot.
You talked about the dual track process and the idea that actually product managers should focus on that discovery work as much as possible. The product management team do discovery, and then are part of the team that builds the product.
I love your definition of a product. I’ve heard it before, but I do like it. A product is something where there is a common problem and where the thing you are using to solve that problem is repeatable.
I liked your answer about internal products cuz it made me think no competitors. That’s a good lens to see whether it’s a true product or a piece of internal work you’re doing. I think in the product world, it’s never really been clear what is a product and what isn’t when you’re talking about internal pieces of work. So I thought that was helpful.
You talked about teams. You talked about being entrusted and empowered which provides an unexpected level of motivation. So it’s magical, you let people know that they’re good at what they do, and then you let them just get on and do their job. And heaven forbid they actually do it well, and they enjoy it and they get excited. It’s not always about the money. So I like that.
There were some anti patterns there that you brought in. Plans that span many months ahead are a waste of time. And we still see written down plans that are nine to 12 months long.
And the other one is that idea about customer feedback early before selecting the idea that you’re gonna implement. Do some research, get some feedback from the customer, and then use that to shorten down the uncertainty, pick the idea you’re gonna make a bet on, and then again, shorten the loop of that idea. Get it in front of them, see whether you guessed right. And like you said, ideas tend not to work the first time. Plan for multiple iterations and experimentations and hopefully finally you’ll get there. Sometimes you don’t.
My overarching feeling is that product management is a unconscious role. It’s a bit like an agile coach. If we say, how do you become an agile coach? The answer typically is, we’ll do it for a while and you ever get good at it or you won’t. And for me, product management seems to be the same, although I think there’s a lot more patterns and contents and templates and practices in the product world.
So that’s what I got out of our one today. Murray, what do you got?
Murray: There’s a lot of people calling themselves product managers and product owners who aren’t really product managers. Really what a lot of people are doing is project management.
it’s hard to know why some products succeed and others fail. I think it’s a real mix of things. It feels like surfing to me. It’s about catching the wave, being at the right place at the right time. But on the other hand, you need to know how to swim. You need to go where the waves are breaking. And you need to try over and over again. And having skill makes a really big difference. So I think having a skilled and experienced product manager will help you quite a lot because you’ll be able to quickly experiment and iterate and try different things.
As for the future of product management, I really like the model that Marty Kagan is talking about now, which is continuous discovery plus continuous delivery plus empowered teams. That all makes a lot of sense to me. And continuous delivery is, more the technical side and continuous discovery is more of the user research and, prototyping and marketing side.
I still think the thing that’s missing though is that you could do all that and still fail because you don’t have a sales team behind you or for some reason your company doesn’t invest in marketing and advertising or. Maybe you are in the wrong country for the people who actually really like your product. We have had a problem a lot here in Australia where the market is too small. So sometimes people end up shifting their whole company over to America where it’s much easier for them.
I’ve developed a product that got great net promoter scores, but the company just didn’t wanna put the sales team behind it. So that’s absolutely critical as well. So I think that’s what I got out of it. I see you writing about this all the time, and I wanted to ask you, why do you do that? Why do you write about product management all the time?
Pawel: I’m not sure how it started. Sometime ago I started learning a lot and I started with Scrum and then I read more and more about product management. But it was easier for me to share what I’m learning with others. I think it was like a way of learning.
Murray: It’s a way of getting feedback on what you’ve learned, to see what other people think about it.
Pawel: Now I do it automatically. I don’t even think about it. It’s just a habit. But I’m still learning a lot because sometimes before writing a post I need to make a research and also people reacting and responding in comments or in direct messages. This is extremely motivating.
Murray: So where can people find you? Do you have a blog or a newsletter?
Pawel: Yeah, I have a newsletter on Substack.
The product Compass with Pawel. And I share many free resources. There is a notion collection with books, videos, free courses like product analytics or product cloud certification. I created some learning plans. I am also trying to publish an article every week to share some advice or tips for product managers.
Murray: Okay. so, the Product Compass with Pawel. That’s where people should go.
Pawel: And of course you can also find me on a LinkedIn and on Twitter.
Murray: Okay, great. Thanks for coming on, Pawel.
Pawel: Thanks. It was a pleasure.